馬雲的商業帝國想和政府做朋友
Duncan Clark is known in Beijing as a savvy commentator on China’s rapidly morphing tech world. A British citizen who first came to China in 1994, he learned the language and stayed for two decades. His background as an investment banker specializing in telecommunications at Morgan Stanley in London and Hong Kong helped him understand in the mid-1990s that the China market was about to take off.
在北京，鄧肯·克拉克(Duncan Clark)因爲能對瞬息萬變的中國科技界做出精闢的點評而聞名。這位英國公民於1994年首度踏足中國，學會了漢語又旅居了20多年。他曾在倫敦與香港的摩根士丹利(Morgan Stanley)任職投資銀行部門，專攻電信通訊類業務。這樣的背景讓他在90年代中期便洞悉到中國市場即將起飛。
Mr. Clark opened a consultancy firm, BDA, which helped raise money for the major telecom operators China Mobile, China Unicom and China Telecom. One of the most interesting characters he encountered, Mr. Clark said, was Jack Ma, in the early days of Alibaba, the e-commerce giant Mr. Ma founded. That insider view infuses Mr. Clark’s book “Alibaba: The House Jack Ma Built,’’ to be published in April. In an interview, Mr. Clark discussed Alibaba’s phenomenal growth, Mr. Ma’s emergence as a public figure and what sets Mr. Ma apart from the Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg.
克拉克創立了自己的投資顧問企業博達克諮詢有限公司(BDA)。該公司曾協助中國移動、中國聯通、中國電信等大型電信運營商籌措資金。克拉克曾表示，要說他遇過的最有趣的人物，在電子商務巨頭阿里巴巴草創時期的馬雲當屬其一。克拉克在他即將於今年4月出版的新書《阿里巴巴：馬雲的商業帝國》(Alibaba: The House Jack Ma Built)裏就融入了自己的幕後觀點。在接受本報的訪談時，克拉克探討了阿里巴巴的驚人成長、馬雲成爲公衆人物這一現象，以及馬雲和Facebook創辦人馬克·扎克伯格(Mark Zuckerberg)的差別何在。
Q. You once described Jack Ma as someone who likes to cultivate the persona of an outsize personality. Isn’t there a risk in having too high a profile in China and being taken down?
問：你曾說過馬雲是個喜歡營造搶眼風格的人物，不過在中國，行事過於高調難道沒有遭到打壓的風險嗎？
A. Executives who say or do the wrong thing are always at risk. I titled the last chapter of my book ‘‘Icon or Icarus.’’
答：那些說錯話、做錯事的企業高管總是有很多風險。我書裏的最後一章就叫做《登高的偶像還是折翼的依卡魯斯》。
Sure, he has an outsize personality and a large public following, but he has been careful not to fall foul of the authorities. If anything, he has positioned Alibaba as a useful ally as the government attempts to put Chinese consumers in the driving seat. Spend more, save less is the new mantra. This won’t happen overnight. Shedding the old economic model centered on manufacturing, construction and exports will take time and require complex and painful reforms. Alibaba, and the power of the Internet, are shiny objects that the government can point to.
馬雲的確是個性鮮明的人，也有大批民衆追隨，不過他很小心行事以免違逆當局的意思。如果說他做了些什麼的話，馬雲是在中國政府企圖讓消費者主導經濟發展之際，把阿里巴巴定位於對政府有利的一個盟友。錢要花得越多越好、存得越少越好，這是新的經濟箴言。不過改變不會在一夕之間發生。中國要擺脫把重點放在製造、營建和出口的老舊經濟模式，這需要時間，還需要既複雜又痛苦的改革。阿里巴巴和互聯網的力量是政府能夠指望的閃光點。
Q. Alibaba has been working in recent years to reorganize and become more efficient. All tech start-ups go through growing pains. How severe are those pains at Alibaba right now?
問：近年來阿里巴巴在着手重整結構、讓公司變得更有效率。所有科技初創公司都會經歷發展時期的種種困難。對現今的阿里巴巴來說，這類困難有多大？
A. Alibaba was founded 17 years ago, employs over 38,000 people, and is a listed company on the NYSE. It has experienced lots of ups and downs, both as a private and a public company, and gone through many reorganizations. Alibaba is more of a commerce company than a tech company, although its future is increasingly one in which technology plays a leading role. Jack himself does not have a tech background and unlike, say, Robin Li at Baidu, he has had to defer to colleagues who do.
答：阿里巴巴是在17年前創立的，現在僱用了逾3.8萬名員工，還是在紐約證券交易所掛牌上市的公司。不論是作爲私人還是公開募股的公司，它都經歷過許多起伏、有過很多次重整。阿里巴巴的商務性質大於科技性質。不過談到這間公司的未來，科技所佔的地位會越來越重。馬雲本身並沒有科技背景，不像百度的李彥宏等人。馬雲一直得倚仗其他有科技業經驗的同事。
After a few years of piecemeal international expansion — including a failed attempt to launch its own consumer-facing site in the U.S. — Jack last year brought in former Goldman Sachs banker Michael Evans to oversee its global footprint, with new offices on the East Coast of the U.S. and across Europe.
經過數年在國際間的逐步擴張——其中包括它曾試着在美國創立面向消費者的網購平臺，但以失敗告終——馬雲在去年延攬了曾供職高盛銀行(Goldman Sachs)的邁克爾·埃文斯(Michael Evans)來爲阿里巴巴的全球佈局操盤，也在美國東海岸與歐洲各地建立了新據點。
Q. Ma started out as an outspoken, slightly goofy businessman. Now he is attending major political events like the China Development Forum — which is a major way for Beijing to promote China. Has he chosen to go into politics of his own free will, or has he allowed himself to be co-opted as a matter of survival?
問：起初馬雲給人感覺是個直言不諱、略帶傻氣的商人。現在他則開始參加諸如中國發展高層論壇——北京向外界宣傳中國的一個重要途徑——之類的大型政治活動。他是自願踏入了政治領域，還是爲企業生存考慮而被動介入？
A. Even before he founded Alibaba, Jack was a regular speaker at conferences at home and abroad. His public appearances have been critical for him to grow and maintain his profile. He is the ultimate performer, his folksy charm and seemingly impossible ambitions as effective in English as in Chinese.
答：在創立阿里巴巴之前，馬雲就經常在國內外參加各種會議，發表講話。這種公開的露面，對他發展和維持個人形象一直很重要。他很有表演才能，身上散發出一種質樸的魅力，但又表達着看似不可能實現的雄心，無論是對外國聽衆還是中國聽衆而言，都很有吸引力。
Before he founded Alibaba, his third venture, Jack worked as a civil servant in Beijing, giving him valuable insights into the intersection of business and politics in China. This is crucial as he expands his empire beyond e-commerce into areas such as finance. The process isn’t smooth however: Jack has already encountered powerful vested interests such as opposition from state-owned banks alarmed by the rapid growth of his money market fund or plans for an online bank.
阿里巴巴是馬雲在商業上的第三次探索。在此之前，他在北京當公務員，因此對中國政商結合的特色有深入的瞭解，這一點非常有價值。當他的商業帝國不斷髮展壯大，越過電子商務領域，進入金融之類的行業時，具備上述認知是極爲重要的。即便如此，這個過程也並非一帆風順：馬雲已經遭遇了一些來自既得利益方的阻力，比如國有銀行的反對。後者看到阿里巴巴的貨幣市場基金或網上銀行項目發展很快，就開始警覺了。
Q. Is Alibaba, whose business depends heavily on private vendors using it to sell their wares, really committed to getting rid of counterfeit products as demanded by the Chinese State Administration for Industry and Commerce (S.A.I.C.)?
問：阿里巴巴的生意極爲依賴在其平臺上銷售貨物的私人賣家。它真的像工商局要求的那樣在致力於消除平臺上的假貨嗎？
A. Fakes and unscrupulous traders are part and parcel of commerce. In China, as in the U.S., there are people who actively seek out fakes, people who are unwilling or unable to pay for the real thing.
答：假貨和無良商人是商業領域必然存在的部分。中國和美國一樣，都有人在有意識地買假貨，因爲他們不願意或沒有能力購買真品。
Simply moving trading online doesn’t eliminate the problem, but it has created tensions between S.A.I.C., the brand owners who suffer from piracy and operators of e-commerce platforms like Alibaba. The short-lived, but very public, spat with S.A.I.C. in January 2015 illustrated that Alibaba has no choice but to step up its efforts to root out fakes on its platforms: to help the government do its job.
把生意挪到網上，並不能解決此類問題，但會讓它跟工商局和品牌商的關係變得緊張，因爲盜版和阿里巴巴之類的電子商務交易平臺的存在，讓後者的利益受到了損害。2015年1月，阿里巴巴和工商總局之間有過一次短暫而又非常公開的衝突。這次爭執顯示出，阿里巴巴沒有別的選擇，只能加強它在根除平臺假貨方面的努力：做本該政府來做的事。
Alibaba became famous for Taobao, the platform where small merchants or individuals sell a wide range of third-party products — including fake products, especially in the early days. Merchants who pass off fake products as real can expect to see their store ratings and business suffer. Alibaba can also shut down the Alipay accounts of repeat offenders, and use big data to analyze trading patterns.
阿里巴巴起初是因淘寶而廣爲人知。該平臺上有很多小商販和個人銷售各種各樣的第三方產品——包括假貨，尤其是在早些年。這些賣假貨的商販有可能面臨店鋪評級降低和生意受損的後果。阿里巴巴也可以關掉反覆違規的店鋪的支付寶賬戶，並利用大數據分析交易模式。
But Alibaba’s success hangs increasingly on another platform, Tmall, where brand owners sell their own — real — products, or via large retailers, directly to consumers. Taobao was vital to Alibaba’s past success. Tmall is the key to its future, as Alibaba generates a commission on every sale. By contrast, on Taobao, Alibaba relies purely on advertising revenue.
不過，阿里巴巴的成功如今越來越依賴於另一個平臺——天貓商城。這是一個品牌商直接銷售或通過大零售商銷售真品的平臺。對阿里巴巴過去的成功而言，淘寶的確功不可沒。但天貓是它未來制勝的關鍵，它可以在該平臺的每一筆交易中抽成。相比之下，在淘寶這一平臺上，阿里巴巴只能賺取廣告費。
Q. Alibaba seems to be buying into new areas that could be considered vanity projects, or projects that assist the Chinese government with soft power. Hollywood and The South China Morning Post, the Hong Kong English-language newspaper, are two examples. How much of Ma’s desire for promoting China is involved in these projects?
問：阿里巴巴似乎正在通過撒錢來進入一些新領域，而它們可以看作形象工程，或能幫助中國提升軟實力的項目。投資好萊塢電影和購買香港英文報紙《南華早報》就是兩個例子。在這些投資項目中，馬雲推廣中國的願望佔了多大成分？
A. The relatively small — $200 million — purchase of The South China Morning Post will do little to move the needle for Alibaba’s business, raising the question of why the company felt inclined to buy it in the first place. In explaining the purchase, Alibaba vice chairman Joe Tsai vowed to protect the newspaper’s editorial independence. Yet he also voiced frustration at how China is portrayed in Western media. While Alibaba is unlikely to use the paper as a vehicle for promoting itself, it faces an uphill struggle to convince skeptics that it made the purchase for reasons other than helping the Chinese government project its influence in the territory.
答：收購《南華早報》是一筆比較小的投資——2億美元——不會對阿里巴巴的生意有什麼影響，因而讓人不明白公司買下它的動機。在解釋進行這項收購的原因時，阿里巴巴董事局副主席蔡崇信(Joe Tsai)承諾，他們會保持該報的採編獨立權。但他也透露出，他們對中國在西方媒體報道中的形象感到不滿。儘管阿里巴巴不太可能會將這家報紙用作自我宣傳的工具，但它的確面臨着一個艱鉅的任務，即讓懷疑者相信，它收購的原因並非爲了幫助中國政府在該領域施加影響。
Q. How would you describe the differences in entrepreneurial style between Mark Zuckerberg and Jack Ma? Do you think Facebook, which is now blocked, will enter the China market?
問：你會如何描述馬克·扎克伯格和馬雲在創業風格上的不同？你覺得現在被封的Facebook，將來有可能進入中國市場嗎？
A. Jack is an entrepreneur’s entrepreneur: He’s not a tech guy, he didn’t go to Harvard, he even once supplemented his income as an English teacher by buying and selling plastic carpets on the streets. Mark Zuckerberg has a tech background, who leveraged that and good timing while at Harvard to build a massive and almost global social business.
答：馬雲是創業者中的創業者：他不是搞技術的，也沒上過哈佛，之前做英語老師時甚至曾在街頭倒賣塑料墊賺外快。馬克·扎克伯格是技術出身，還在哈佛上學的時候，他就依靠這一背景開始創業，再加上又趕上了好時機，由此發展出規模龐大的、幾乎覆蓋全球的社交網絡生意。
But China will likely remain beyond Facebook’s grasp. China has hardly stood still without Facebook: Tencent’s WeChat is a dominant player in China already, superior in some important ways to Facebook especially in mobile. No doubt Jack and Zuckerberg have explored how they might work together, not least because Tencent is a formidable competitor to Alibaba in social and mobile.
不過，Facebook很有可能依然無法獲得中國市場。就算沒有Facebook的存在，中國的社交網絡也在不斷髮展：騰訊的微信已經是這個市場的主導者，它在一些重要的方面優於Facebook，尤其是在移動端。所以馬雲會和扎克伯格商討如何展開合作，一點也不奇怪，尤其是考慮到在社交和移動領域，騰訊是阿里巴巴一個強大的對手。
But to enter China, Facebook would have to water down its local product, or de-link it from the rest of the world — which risks alienating customers and the U.S. government. It’s hard to see how Facebook can square the circle. But that doesn’t mean that Mark Zuckerberg won’t keep on trying.
然而，要想進入中國市場，Facebook的社交產品就得打折扣，或說與世界其他地區的社交網絡隔離——這可能會導致Facebook疏遠已有的用戶和美國政府。它很難破解這種兩難的局面。但這並不意味着馬克·扎克伯格不會繼續爲此努力。
